antizionists vs the jews

"Criticizing the state of Israel is not hostility to or prejudice against Jews, therefore not Anti-Semitic BY DEFINITION. But yall really keep trying it."

that very much depends on whether you're listening to both sides of the story, and very much on who's telling it. i lived in israel for twelve years, a couple of those with palestinians, and i've learned that even on the ground relatively few people know what's actually going on and it's a phenomenally complex and nuanced situation. if all the criticism is flowing in only one direction, well, then the bias is telling. nobody yelling "free palestine" is actually doing the palestinians any favours, all that does is inspire more fighting and prevent more talking.

"there's so much to unpack here. Prevent more talking? Like the "inciting" laws that prevent free speech for Palestinians? Inspire more fighting? Like illegal settlements in the West Bank? If you're not speaking actively and outwardly against those things, whose bias. Is showing?
We say Free Palestine because Palestinians aren't free. In their own land. To self determine. I know what apartheid looks like. I know what oppression looks like. And speaking out against those policies doesn't equate to anti-semitism. Unless of course you're intertwining oppression and Judaism, which would be wild."

you say you know what apartheid looks like, as a south african born under apartheid let me tell you that comparing the situation there to apartheid is unbelievably insulting to the africans that suffered under actual apartheid.

the only time that comparison becomes at all fathomable is by denying that the state of israel has the right to exist. and following that line, you would have to be denying that the jews made multiple attempts to peaceably divide the country from 1928 through to the independence war. we won that war, and those "palestinians" who remained became "israeli arabs" and have civil rights just like any other israeli. those who fled, or were chased out (the stories aren't always so clear), were not accepted as refugees by their countries of origin (egypt and jordan, primarily), and have been deliberately forced to maintain their refugee status by the arab nations because it has suited them to exploit these people as a weapon against israel. UNRWA was invented to maintain the palestinians' refugee status, not to help them get on with their lives (which is pretty messed up if you think about it).

so back to the point, if you're calling israel an "apartheid state" then you're including the palestinian territories (gaza and the west bank) as a part of israel, which they're not. they're under PA and hamas control, not israeli control, which means that israelis would be the dumbest people on the planet to let them pass through israeli borders unchecked. and i've heard stories from troops on the border that would make you cry for both sides.

let's be very clear that i do not in any way, shape or form think that situation is okay. let's be very clear, i personally believe that the palestinians are the most ****ed over people on the planet. the only thing is, what's doing them over isn't the israelis - though the gods know israel is not helping their situation nor the israelis' by reacting to every terrorist instigation rather than trying to find out-of-the-box solutions for such a complex situation - israel is well within its moral rights to defend its citizens, and the palestinians are not israeli citizens.

myself, and what i estimate to be the vast majority of israelis, do not want settlements, we want peace, we want dialog, we want solutions. many, if not most palestinians want peace with israel and to get on with their lives. but we're all at the mercy of a number of factors.

1. the palestinians aren't just at the mercy of their leadership, which in turn is at the mercy of rich, terrible entities that fund them and don't give a damn about anything other than the destruction of the jews, they're at the mercy of decades of training to be weapons of hate against israel. we've heard countless stories - and i've met some refugees personally - of people who've been taught to hate israel and the jews from birth and who enter the country and discover that it's all lies. there are plenty of palestinians who know what's going on, but they also know that if they dare to open their mouths the palestinian "leadership" will drag them through the streets, execute them, and make their families suffer.

2. the israelis generally want peace, but as proud as they are of their democracy it's been corrupt as **** since the 90's and their leadership are pretty clueless. except for netanyahu, who's a very shrew POS who's conned a magnificent political game, and with his (what i believe should be illegal) tactical coalition governments has managed to give power to the hard-right minority who are causing almost as much damage to the israeli populace as they are to palestinian relations - those are the settlers and their supporters.

3. after decades of terrorism, israelis have become convinced that palestinians "love death" and cannot be negotiated with. they cannot empathize with the palestinians, and you probably wouldn't want to either if you lived in perpetual fear of them. but imagine if you had the choice of a really shitty life, or of ending it quickly with a violent act and securing for family for a little while. what would you choose?

neither the palestinians nor the israelis trust each other, and although there are some wonderful initiatives happening at a grassroots level there're certainly not enough. it doesn't help that both sides culturally are very proud, and very stubborn. we could work to increase these initiatives, but the media and court of public opinion prefers to put all blame squarely on the israelis shoulders which makes these positive sorts of things harder to pull off.

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on a personal level, i've been speaking out against the settlements for decades now, very few people i know are misguided enough to support them. the settlements make me angry, dude, and i've been hit with tear gas for protesting them. regarding "incitement", don't be confused by BS. palestinians and israeli-arabs can and do say whatever they damned well please, as long as its against israel. the real punishment comes when they speak out against their own organizations, you look that up and tell me you're cool with what those people are subjected to.

btw, i've also served in the army, and i can guarantee you that military indoctrination is to be as ethical as possible and to avoid both physical and psychological harm to anyone who is not a clear aggressor. while that leads to an distasteful conversation that we can have about units who do not adhere to army doctrine, i can vouch from the inside that by and large israel and israelis have no malicious intent towards the palestinians and just want this crap to be over. you would not believe the lengths to which hamas has to go to increase casualties whenever some kind of action is being taken, it's literally mind-boggling.

personally, i believe that israel would serve the palestinians and themselves best if they *would* give the palestinians the right of return, the palestinians would definitely be a lot better off. but because israel is a "proud democracy" we would immediately lose our jewish homeland due to numbers. so we'd have to ditch modern democracy and figure out some other system, which would be such a controversial move that i can't imagine that ever happening. any other constructive solutions always welcome.

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so all that said, you're totally right to criticize settlements. but if you're not criticizing the arab nations (via hamas and the PA) for their part, that sounds like a pretty serious bias to me. everyone seems to care so much about the actions of a tiny jewish state, which is serving as a wonderful distraction from the humanitarian disaster that surrounds it. if people really cared about the palestinians, they'd care about solving the problems and not carrying on down the same, well-worn paths we've been fighting on for most of a century.

and if you're only criticizing israel, well, then, one has to be fair and look at what that tiny nation represents. because it's the jewish homeland, and when push comes to shove we really don't have anywhere else to go. if you're not part of the solution...