a while back i published
a vegan hypocrisy. a few days ago i passed it to someone in response to their statement that "everyone should just stop eating meat". a friend of mine was really upset about what i wrote, so here's her response, and what follows are my responses to those responses.
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when you turn vegan, you don't magically correct the way that the animals are treated. i promise. if you care about them, then go for the source and stop lying to yourself that your passivity is making a difference. of course it doesn't correct the way that the animals are treated, no one can change the whole world, especially not in such a short time or even not in 10 or 50 years. but what it does change is the fact that no animal is being bad treated for "the sake" of them. they are not passive at all. you have no idea how active they are, and i'm not speaking politically. they are very active in their own private circle, which you probably won't know or notice if you have no vegan friends. they do what ever they can to change their own circle and to make it good and comfortable to live in, because they know that they can't change the whole world but they can start small.
is killing wrong? go on, deny your humanity. our existence, specifically the quantity of us on the planet, is what's taking more lives than you can imagine. you're no bloody hero because you started yourself on a diet that at best might cause you to suffer malnutrition. eat a steak, then go do something useful like running a farm that treats its animals right. this proves you got it all wrong. the fact that we all are human is not denied here, on the contrary. the whole idea is not just to change a diet so not animal will get hurt. it's changing the way of life. and again, since no person can change the whole world in a jiffy, they have to start small. they can't stop wars or industries or pollution or all the other things that were made by mankind and destroy this beautiful planet. they can start, again, with their small circle and try to expand it.
and as for that last comment- no, they will not eat a steak, but they might do run a farm that treat its animals right. apparently you have no idea what "right" means in a vegan or in a vegetarian way. "the right way" for us (yes, i'm a vegetarian) to treat animals is NOT TO KILL THEM AND NOT TO CAUSE THEM ANY UNNECESSARY HARM! the idea of running a farm that treats its animals right is a great idea, but killing those animals just because we "think" we need the nutritions in their meat is wrong. we don't need them, we can get them all from other sources- vegetarian/vegan sources.
or start wiping out humans. you probably want to. seriously?!? this is your advice of correcting the world? way too many people died on this planet for mankind's stupidity. i don't know what you were thinking while writing this ignorant (and not funny) comment, but again, it proves to me that you don't understand even in a tiny bit the way of thinking of the people you are writing about.
vegan is not a dietary choice - it's a politicized world-view: http://www.vegfamily.com/vegan-view... i'm not sure what you're trying to say here. how is it political? it's a life-style change. and yes, in order to make things out of leather you have to kill and animal (which is as i already said- wrong in vegan and vegetarian opinion). to throw something (made out of parts of an animal) that you bought, before coming to realize that killing animals is wrong, is ok as long as you're not disgusted about the idea. the reason for that is that if you'd throw it away while it is still perfectly fine and useable, would be a waste of the life of the animal that died painfully just so this piece of clothing or whatever would look pretty. there's nothing political about it, more like conscience or guilt feelings for buying it in the first place.
the problem with veganism is that it's rubbish. people do it because it's popular and it makes them feel good about themselves, and superior. being a vegan does NOT make farmers treat their animals better, it is NOT a healthy lifestyle and it IS an aggressive political force that spells big trouble if we continue to ignore the issues. first of all, calling other people's opinions and life-styles "rubbish" is wrong and it shows how little respect you have to other people. each and every person deserves to have his own opinion. you may criticize it, you may agree or disagree with it, but you MAY NOT call it rubbish. i think the first bad thing that happened in this world is the loss of people's respect. people these days have no respect to themselves, to other people, to animals and living things around then and most of all- to the earth they're standing on and the air they're breathing. this is what destroys this planet and "spells bug trouble" (if to use your own words) and not veganism.
second, the only correct things you said here were: " it makes them feel good about themselves" and "being a vegan does NOT make farmers treat their animals better". yes, it makes them feel good about themselves - no animal is being mistreated just so their stomach will feel full or that they will look fashionable. and as for the world's farmers i've already responded to that above.
the other things you said are for, again, a sign of ignorance. if you really want to know what veganism means, go ask a vegan.
veganism is essentially a form of homeopathy: the less you do the more effect you have...
people will believe anything that makes their lives easier (or that they *think* makes their lives easier). veganism DOES NOT make your life easier, especially in this world. no vegan thinks his life is easy; the situation is exactly on the contrary. watching the way this world works in the eyes of a vegan is one of the hardest things to do since he knows he can't do much about it. people are so hard-minded and fixed up about "closing their eyes" and not seeing the things they are doing which destroys the ground beneath their feet. watching that without being able to do much about it except trying to start small, is NOT an easy life.
there is irony in being against milk extraction when it's necessary for the survival of the cows. and check this out: http://streakr.com/no-such-thing-as... ?the only irony here is that you don't know the facts. the only reason their survival is depended on the extraction of milk is because we made it that way, and by "we" i mean humankind. a cow that lives in the nature (which, by the way, i don't think there's such a creature at the moment, maybe except for india) makes calves (without of course the very nice person that shoves his hand into her private organ). then, just like a human woman, it gives birth after 9 months and produces milk to heR calf. after the calf doesn't need anymore milk, guess what- just like a human woman, the mother-cow STOPS creating milk until her next pregnancy. the ONLY REASON humans keep them in a constant state of pregnancy for the period after that! and if you really "checked the facts" you'd know that the life expectancy of cows in the nature is 20-25 years. do you want to guess how many years they "survive" because of humans? 5-10. care to ask yourself why?
oh and as for the link- clearly you don't know any vegans. vegans always check everything. did you know that in some kinds of
bissli there's a thing called E361 which usually made from cow-meat or sardines (though it is possible to create it by fermentation on molasses). vegan people know that.
some proponents are willing to tell the truth: http://veganhealth.org/articles/int... again, veganism is a lot more than just a diet, but lets us say for a moment it is only a diet. in every diet you take, no matter if it's vegan or not, you have to know what your body needs and how and what you should eat (in the limitations of your diet) in order to get it all. so yes, lots of diets don't have every nutrition the body needs in order to keep working correctly, but what most people don't know, and especially people who are new in the area of veganism, is the amounts of supplements that can be found in the nature (and in the stores) which were not created by harming any sort of animal.
some interesting points to ponder: http://www.starchefs.com/features/f... i'm going to start this with a quote from the article: "there are several nutrients that are found in abundance in animal products, but exist in only a handful of vegan foods. therefore, critics argue, while it is possible to get all of the essential nutrients on a vegan diet, it is extremely challenging." i don't know if you've noticed, but he's excuse is "it's challenging". living in this world, even without being a vegan, is a challenge. this is what he's afraid of??
another one: " since vegan sources of vitamin B12 are scarce, vegans must be vigilant about getting enough of this essential vitamin."- just another excuse caused by the laziness of humans.
next: " we are part of the food chain, they say, and killing to eat is a natural part of the cycle of life"- would you eat your pet if you had no money to buy food, or go out side and try to find something free and edible for the both of you?
and last but not least: " how could not eating dairy and eggs save our planet?" and i will answer it with his own quote (with which he contradicts himself- twice): " studies indicate that animal agriculture is contributing to a host of environmental problems, including topsoil erosion, wilderness area depletion, groundwater contamination, and greenhouse gas production".
if you want to ponder about something, ponder about how the world was such an amazing place before any human industry has begun.
in particular, there is much controversy surrounding B12 sources: http://ezinearticles.com/?vitamin-B... the world is full of controversies and as he said, there are still ways for vegans to get B12 even if it's through pills.
did you know that a lack of B12 not only means a lack of energy, but also depression? and can lead to psychosis? most vocal proponents of veganism are crazy enough, thank you very much. first of all- yes i know. this is something every vegan or vegetarian check (or at least should check if he has a brain inside his head) before he becomes vegan or vegetarian. all diets (since that's how you insist on calling it) are risky if you don't know the whole picture.
and second, about that last comment- grow up.
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1. "or start wiping out humans. you probably want to." that was me being snarky and sarcastic, no i'm not really being serious with that sentence and i personally have a lot to say about human overpopulation.
2. i don't have a problem with facts, i have a problem with opinions, and this is supposed to be a fight about facts. everyone has the right to their opinions, but not the right to transmit them as facts.
3. i know a heck of a lot of vegans, and that's where this comes from. not everyone is as open-minded as you, and lot more vegans than you'd believe are aggressive about missionarizing.
4. you took my tone personally. i've said it before, and i'll say it again: i have no patience for politicized veganism. i have *NO* problem with anybody who doesn't eat meat because they have issues with where it comes from, my beef* is with people who push veganism as a solution to the problem.
* sorry, had to.
5. there is a problem. animals are treated badly. there are immediate and effective solutions. if you think you have to wait fifty years to make a difference, think again. the biggest driver of the status quo is the supermarket chains and butcheries, who provide the buffer between the consumer and the farmer. these supermarket chains and butcheries are interested in nothing but the bottom line, their pockets. they provide ZeRo incentive to the farmers to behave differently.
just like organic foodstuffs. yoU pay more when you buy them, but the farmers don't enjoy the extra profit and so they cheat. or don't care.
in this day and age, we have the technology and communication infrastructure to take matters into our own hands. we can make deals with the farmers, arrange transportation and refrigeration, and take control of the system. and that's with people eating as much meat as they want.
we also have the ability to go and visit those farms, and make farmers who mistreat livestock miserable.
we can do this, and the number of vegans around is more than enough to get together and make shit happen, turning the aggression that's usually* reserved for meat-eating people into a useful tool for achieving goals.
* usually - not everyone's an asshole. but understand that if the vegans you've met are nice people, it doesn't mean that all vegans are nice people. a lot of the ones i know are holier-than-thou in the worst way, and don't contribute a hell of a lot to society.
6. yes, we made the situation the way it is with dairy cows and milking etc. etc.
we also made bananas edible.
we're a sucky species. but this is not about blame, this is about dealing with the situation we have right now. if we could go back in time to fix our mistakes, that would be great.
7. health.
FACT: you can get almost everything you need from vegetarian sources.
FACT: you can get alMosT everything you need, but not everything. one of the scariest deficiencies that one can have is B12. that's an animal-source only. if you don't eat meat , at the very least, for the love of yourself, make sure you take supplements. or eat fortified things like cereals where it's listed on the box.
symptoms: lack of energy? uninteresting. depression? normal. psychosis? holy shit. like we don't have enough crazy on the planet - and you can't *know* if you're psychotic or not.
8. i didn't mean "makes life easy", i meant "is an easier alternative to confronting the issues".
9. i wrote a lot of the note out of frustration, and a number of your points are correct. especially concerning my tone. i'll be rewriting it shortly.
10. on the one hand, i entirely agree with everyone that we need to make severe lifestyle changes because we have seriously messed up mother earth. you mistake my attitude towards political veganism with "i don't give a crap and let's consume, consume, consume".
on the other hand, there are certain things that are really important about the human race. most notably, we are the only species that gives a damn about the state of the planet. this is why i'm a vocal (and offensively so) opponent of overpopulation and mismanagement of resources.
i'm not going to go into my personal ideas here regarding what we can do to fix the problems we've caused, but i am going to say that we are, without a doubt, the most important treasure on the planet. and we need to respect ourselves, as tops of the food chain, aND respect the planet that provides for us. Both, not one or the other.
we need to find alternatives, we need vat-grown meat and genetically modified crops and whatever other technology we can muster so that we can survive, advance, and simultaneously return the planet to a more comfortable state.
11. if i thought you were one of the crazies, i wouldn't even be arguing with you. unfortunately, there aren't that many people who actually think carefully about the situation without becoming extreme. you wouldn't believe the kind of shit i heard and argued with before writing up the original post. i apologize for using terms that you felt included you in them, and that apology goes out to everyone who doesn't fall under the category of "blind pusher".
also, i extend a warm invitation to everyone to help me organize a co-op that can supply meat for all those interested in a way that ensures direct improvements in the way farmers treat their livestock. because it's a start, and it's not a huge effort either.
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we seem to have reached a calm point of agreement. in conclusion:
i think the essential point that you made was about respect, and my aggressive attitude and tone were intended towards the hell of a lot of vegans who think that because they're giving something up it makes them better than everyone else.
you're right - it should be a lifestyle thing, of which diet is only a small part. i'm happy to work with anyone who isn't trying to show me how terrible i am for eating meat, and i'm always on the lookout for a few good people who want to make change happen now.
thank you (in both directions) for paying attention to what i was writing instead of just glossing and fighting, it's very much appreciated :)
